tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4855856123871700301.post4460077889054361072..comments2023-06-10T20:22:01.348+08:00Comments on The Society of Honor by Joe America: Free the Philippines!The Society of Honorhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02536906267332687130noreply@blogger.comBlogger45125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4855856123871700301.post-82284300687886686992011-10-24T16:45:30.102+08:002011-10-24T16:45:30.102+08:00Attila,
Train wreck, hah. I think a lot of it is ...Attila,<br /><br />Train wreck, hah. I think a lot of it is defensiveness against an outsider having a critical opinion.The Society of Honorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02536906267332687130noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4855856123871700301.post-30743817406259352082011-10-24T10:58:49.111+08:002011-10-24T10:58:49.111+08:00Joe,
So interesting to see that you have to expla...Joe,<br /><br />So interesting to see that you have to explain in detail and give GabbyD a list of reasons why and how parents fail their children. GabbyD and other Filipinos know this already. You didn't say anything new. They just think differently and they end up loosing focus. <br />They are like a derailed train.Attilahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06669976067539551920noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4855856123871700301.post-18563155888218399092011-10-20T04:57:13.786+08:002011-10-20T04:57:13.786+08:00GabbyD,
Interesting, that directive about no new...GabbyD, <br /><br />Interesting, that directive about no new uniforms. 2008. That's excellent. I still see a lot of uniforms in the public schools; perhaps they are hand-me-downs. <br /><br />I don't think parents are idiots. I wonder why you feel a need to twist my words that way.<br /><br />I think many parents never sit with their child and read or help with homework; many because they can't afford books and many because they didn't go to school and CAN'T read or help with the homework. Many because they are busy caring for 5 to 10 kids and don't have the time or energy to nurture their children. You wish to defend the status quo on parenting and education, that is fine. Many do, obviously.<br /><br />My perspective comes from the heartache (and anger) I get when I see a child not in school on a school day, for whatever reason. And when I think about 45 kids per classroom (a "fact" for you to dine on; along with the shortage of 54,000 teachers and 64,000 classrooms and the thousands of schools without water or electricity). I wonder how parents stand for it, knowing that their child is going to be given a bad deal.<br /><br />My four-point policy follow through, offered as an alternative to the sarcasm you threw up, includes a plank for parents because I suspect (a guess; no statistics to back it up) that many would not understand the new curriculum, and many are not aware of the vital role the parent can play in instilling excitement about learning. Some I suspect (guess) just wash their hands of a child's intellectual development and figure that is the school's job. I personally think home life determines success as much as school. If I am wrong, what is the harm making sure parents play a constructive role?<br /><br />And yes, it is obnoxious of me, with my one child who gets read to daily, and can afford private school, and has a library of 50 books at the age of three . . . to stand apart and cast judgment. I suppose you feel it would be more constructive if I sat silent. Then you would not have to feel any . . . what . . . shame? . . .anger? . . . envy? . . .that millions of Filipino kids don't have the same advantage. Not even close. No books. Never read to. And parents who don't care, or can't care, for reasons other than being "idiots". Well, maybe there are a few of them, too. If I sat silent, you would not have to work so obsessively to defend the way things are.The Society of Honorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02536906267332687130noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4855856123871700301.post-92199835169221664602011-10-19T07:38:13.257+08:002011-10-19T07:38:13.257+08:00"(4) provide simple guidelines to parents abo..."(4) provide simple guidelines to parents about how they can help their children grow richer through education."<br /><br />ok. so this is what i'm talking about...<br /><br />you are assuming (correct me if i'm wrong) that if parents are selfish, they do so because of ignorance. they DON'T KNOW that education is good. <br /><br />again, i dont think you have enough information. lets say you're wrong.<br /><br />at BEST, if you operationalize this, nothing will happen because they already KNOW that.<br /><br />see? my point is simple. how about allowing for the possibility, and little intellectual and moral consideration that they may not be complete idiots? idiots?GabbyDnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4855856123871700301.post-69451580737079454112011-10-19T07:34:10.560+08:002011-10-19T07:34:10.560+08:00on (2):
DepEd: No more uniforms for public schoo...on (2):<br /><br /><br />DepEd: No more uniforms for public school students <br />By Lira Dalangin-Fernandez<br />INQUIRER.net<br />First Posted 14:51:00 06/03/2008<br /><br />Filed Under: Education, Government<br />MANILA, Philippines -- All public elementary and high school students will no longer be required to wear uniforms, Education Secretary Jesli Lapus announced on Tuesday.GabbyDnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4855856123871700301.post-69406103482522853092011-10-19T05:11:41.755+08:002011-10-19T05:11:41.755+08:00GabbyD,
Policy follow-through: (1) make education...GabbyD,<br /><br />Policy follow-through: (1) make education mandatory through high school and levy fines or other punishments on parents/guardians who abuse their children by allowing them to skip school, (2) make public education completely free of fees and stop requiring uniforms so that that the poor have an equal opportunity to compete for a good education, (3) include subjects such as "character, competing for jobs, discipline, and ethics" in the curriculum so kids understand the importance of their behavior, learning and responsibility, and (4) provide simple guidelines to parents about how they can help their children grow richer through education.The Society of Honorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02536906267332687130noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4855856123871700301.post-11269301753785373002011-10-18T10:10:59.981+08:002011-10-18T10:10:59.981+08:00my problem isnt even about generalizations.
this ...my problem isnt even about generalizations.<br /><br />this is a bigger issue-- joe, you "guessed" at motivations for these parents, without getting a feel of what their options are. <br /><br />this is a fairness issue. i'm not asking you to come up with details if you dont want to.<br /><br />i'm saying -- IF you dont want to, DONT make insinuations about people's motivations. <br /><br />at best, that's counterproductive. here's why. lets say you are wrong about ur belief about parent's motivations.<br /><br />but for somereason, other people believe you. what kind of policy comes from the finding that parents put themselves before their kids? <br /><br />would it then be OK to separate kids from their parents? what about forced abortions? or if u dont have the stomach for that, a response might be: its useless! pinoy parents hate their kids. just ignore them. <br /><br />see? the "conclusion" of "parents are selfish" leads directly to policy options.<br /><br />hence, its important to think about our conclusions carefully, or at least be cognizant of their limitations.<br /><br />but joe, simple question: dont the poor deserve the same consideration we give to each other all the time?GabbyDnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4855856123871700301.post-48642274021428653882011-10-18T04:39:14.799+08:002011-10-18T04:39:14.799+08:00Anon, a "sweeping generalization" to me ...Anon, a "sweeping generalization" to me is just a part of the thought process. It is how I get from thinking about what I suspect is a problem (kids not being encouraged to stay in school, learn, be something other than a laborer) to a solution (use technology to solve the problem of not enough classrooms or teachers). I hope you are not telling me I should not look for solutions to problems. However I do it. If you disagree with the principle that kids should be given the opportunity to be all that they can be, then we have little to talk about. We see life and the goals of life differently.<br /><br />For those of you requiring facts, go ahead and look them up. I don't mind. But don't expect me to be your laborer, wasting time dredging up details when I could be writing or thinking.The Society of Honorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02536906267332687130noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4855856123871700301.post-91961911637769805422011-10-17T18:39:32.037+08:002011-10-17T18:39:32.037+08:00Joe,
Gabby is right, you shouldn't be making ...Joe,<br /><br />Gabby is right, you shouldn't be making these sweeping generalizations. Next thing you know,you'll be telling people that it's Ok to swim in a pool of sharks. But hey, studies have shown that not all sharks are man-eaters.<br /><br />Yes it's common knowledge that many parents in the Philippines will make their kids drop out of school to work as house maids. You know, so they can send money to support the household. <br /><br />It's also common knowledge that many parents in the Philippines, groom their daughters to marry well off men or foreigners, to take the whole family out of poverty.<br /><br />But since you haven't talk to all the parents and asked what their motivations, aspirations, feelings and what they had for breakfast, then your just making a sweeping generalization.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4855856123871700301.post-38397392697404967192011-10-17T11:01:15.487+08:002011-10-17T11:01:15.487+08:00joe,
get a life? wow, thats a rather extreme sta...joe, <br /><br />get a life? wow, thats a rather extreme statement for someone who's only desire is to set the record straight.<br /><br />note that you havent really responded to any of the points i've raised.<br /><br />to summarize: should we give them the same consideration we expect for ourselves?<br /><br />is this a bad thing? what am i missing?<br /><br />i go "on and on" because there is NO RESPONSE to this. <br /><br />i go "on and on" because this is the least we owe each other, right?<br /><br />cmon, please tell me i'm wrong. i feel i entered a weird world where its OK to just make judgements about people based on what we see...<br /><br />for example, would it be OK for me to think ill of you because you flipped me off with your "get a life?"<br /><br />btw, if the golden rule isnt "a life", i dont know what getting a life means...GabbyDnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4855856123871700301.post-55018941366165599392011-10-17T01:54:14.697+08:002011-10-17T01:54:14.697+08:00GabbyD:
Yes, you may be right that we don't a...GabbyD:<br /><br />Yes, you may be right that we don't always know the exact reason why the parent would want their children quit school or not let them advance in their studies. All we know that it is happening based on Joe's and others observation maybe including yours. However knowing the culture, the thinking of your people, you don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure it out and make an educated guess why they do it. You are in the Philippines or at least born and raised there. You must know the general thinking and values of the poor people. Let me help you out and give you a hint: Isn't it a common belief that having many children is the poor man's life insurance policy. Isn't that selfish alone?Attilahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06669976067539551920noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4855856123871700301.post-48441471765666783232011-10-16T14:45:08.311+08:002011-10-16T14:45:08.311+08:00Sigh... OK here's one for the guy living under...Sigh... OK here's one for the guy living under a rock. I've employed at least 3 girls who were made by their parents to drop out of high school.<br /><br />WinkyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4855856123871700301.post-86119464291415120632011-10-16T12:32:10.238+08:002011-10-16T12:32:10.238+08:00And on and on and on.
Get a life.And on and on and on.<br /><br />Get a life.The Society of Honorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02536906267332687130noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4855856123871700301.post-52300684258455612822011-10-16T11:13:52.750+08:002011-10-16T11:13:52.750+08:00huh?
this is not about your credibility. i belie...huh? <br /><br />this is not about your credibility. i believe everything you say! <br /><br />my point is that it is a BIG "CON" to you argument that you ascribe motivations to people without basis.<br /><br />actually, after this (too) long of an exchange, i'm reasonable convinced that you are "theorizing", since you have not asserted you actually spoken to any of the parents you sought to criticize.<br /><br />theorizing is FINE. 100% ok. as long as we are clear that is what is happening.<br /><br />the problem is that your declarative sentences are filled with certainty that you dont actually possess.<br /><br />thats a problem when you are saying that the REASON they dont go to school is because parents are selfish....<br /><br />...when you dont really KNOW that!<br /><br />for example, i can "theorize" about you. but i think thats quite unfair to you. hence, i want to ask you point blank.<br /><br />i think the poor DESERVE THE SAME TREATMENT.<br /><br />dont u think so? (am i alone in believing in the golden rule???)GabbyDnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4855856123871700301.post-1398582905791537352011-10-16T10:50:45.669+08:002011-10-16T10:50:45.669+08:00Attila, I agree that GabbyD means well. His observ...Attila, I agree that GabbyD means well. His observations on other blog sites call into question the thinking of writers, as he has done here. My frustration is that he(she?) won't let go of a point that is more to the credibility of the writer than the pros and cons of the argument. So the conversation gets "hijacked" and we end up doing the cultural ring-around-the-rosy, both parties talking, the other not hearing. Listening, yes. Hearing, no.The Society of Honorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02536906267332687130noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4855856123871700301.post-59012433521770289412011-10-16T09:24:08.311+08:002011-10-16T09:24:08.311+08:00GabbyD
I'm starting to believe that you reall...GabbyD<br /><br />I'm starting to believe that you really mean well. It is the way you process information is how we differ. I assume it is a cultural thing between us. I also honestly believe that the type of thinking you and many Filipinos have holds you back from moving your country ahead. We are from very different cultures. A journalist of Filipino descent jokingly told me once that the Filipinos are "misplaced" westerners. Yes it seems that way first but the more I learned about the the way Filipinos think the more I see how it is not true. We don't have as much in common as I thought. We have major differences in the way we process info and deal with reality. My question to you is how it's working for you?Attilahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06669976067539551920noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4855856123871700301.post-36447342532162397642011-10-16T08:14:33.435+08:002011-10-16T08:14:33.435+08:00oh, just to finish...
coz if this is what you wan...oh, just to finish...<br /><br />coz if this is what you want, then we will have a world that is not very friendly or useful.<br /><br />everyone will judge books by their covers. <br /><br />i thought this was a bad thing which we must avoid?GabbyDnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4855856123871700301.post-45804283928107043352011-10-16T08:12:55.553+08:002011-10-16T08:12:55.553+08:00really? i'm surprised that its OK to ascribe m...really? i'm surprised that its OK to ascribe motivation to people without more information.<br /><br />i'm surprised that its OK with you. <br /><br />i thought this would be a variant of the GOLDEN RULE. (which i thought is universal, i.e. something we can all agree on).<br /><br />that is-- if you dont want other people to assume your motivations, then dont do it to others.<br /><br />so, joe, to be clear: its OK for you to say that parents are "selfish" (in the way u described them above) because you observe that the kids dont go to school.<br /><br />so IS IT OK for other people to judge (with certainty) in in other ways by looking at your decisions and lifestyle?<br /><br />this is the implication of your argument. is this what you want?GabbyDnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4855856123871700301.post-77961764172275169752011-10-16T07:29:39.384+08:002011-10-16T07:29:39.384+08:00GabbyD, you want it done your way, write your own ...GabbyD, you want it done your way, write your own blog and stop trying to make me walk your kind of line. If you don't appreciate what I write simply don't read it. If I make a specious argument that lacks facts, cite the facts that condemn the argument, don't make me run around compiling useless information that you, personally, want. I'd rather spend my time figuring out what something means.The Society of Honorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02536906267332687130noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4855856123871700301.post-49598757391719423352011-10-16T05:35:44.578+08:002011-10-16T05:35:44.578+08:00attila,
i think he (joe) can do what he wants, re...attila,<br /><br />i think he (joe) can do what he wants, reach whatever conclusions he wants.<br /><br />BUT if he wants to ascribe motivations (with certainty!), he should have more information.<br /><br />he could say "i think.... because i see....". thats an opinion, and anyone can have one.<br /><br />BUT when says" i see... therefore IT MUST BE that ...." requires more work.<br /><br />thats the opposite of "god" -- it at least acknowledges the LIMITS of making observations. <br /><br />also, i'm NOT ASKING FOR STUDIES. or statistics. <br /><br />but has he tried TALKING to them? asking them? getting to know them?<br /><br />its not about insulting filipinos per se. its about PEOPLE. i think all people deserve at least a presumption that things are more complex than what appears.GabbyDnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4855856123871700301.post-68286576610993210172011-10-16T04:32:51.607+08:002011-10-16T04:32:51.607+08:00GabbyD:
So what you are saying is that in order f...GabbyD:<br /><br />So what you are saying is that in order for someone like Joe to write a blog about his experience it is not enough that he is using common sense he also needs to read some in depth social, scientific studies. Otherwise he may end up insulting the poor people of the Philippines? Where are you from, what planet or should I ask under what rock did you just climbed out from under? If you haven't noticed yet, Joe's opinion is much better than the other's. He has the education, the intelligence, the objectivity, and a good heart for it. You, on the other hand, don't have good common sense. You can't break off from your limitations. You are trapped like many of your fellow Filipinos. What are going to write to Joe next? Let me guess: You think you are God?Attilahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06669976067539551920noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4855856123871700301.post-22026370491815307872011-10-16T03:32:22.429+08:002011-10-16T03:32:22.429+08:00ah, so it IS observation.
i dont mind that. you ...ah, so it IS observation. <br /><br />i dont mind that. you are free to conclude/"guess" what you want when you see your environment.<br /><br />but what i am saying is that ascribing motivation to people (parents) requires MORE information.<br /><br />surely, if i dont know you, but i ascribe to you motivations that arent yours based solely on our interactions here, then that would be, AT BEST, inaccurate?<br /><br />if i want to know your motivations, i ASK YOU. i'll say, hey joe, what do you think about X?<br /><br />this is what i have been doing for the past day and a half. <br /><br />i could have skipped that, and concluded after obvserving your writings.<br /><br />but NO. i want to give you respect, and know that people are complicated beings, who face complex decisions.<br /><br />right? that basic respect for other people. <br /><br />all i am asking is that we extend that same respect to ALL PEOPLE. including the poor.<br /><br />again, this isnt PROOF. i'm NOT ASKING FOR PROOF. all i want to know, is whether this is a conclusion based on observations, or based on more indepth info gathering.<br /><br />i think this is important. alot of people say this and that, and thats fine. but they say it AS IF they know more than anyone else.<br /><br />if they did know more, then that would be a contribution to the debate. but if you dont, then that guy's opinion is as good as any other. <br /><br />__________________________<br />"I see kids working when they should be in school. How do you read that?"<br /><br />i see that too. EVERYONE SEES THAT. the question is how to read it. its complex. and certainly, i'm not sure that "parents are selfish" is enough to explain it.GabbyDnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4855856123871700301.post-69333145041742751182011-10-15T20:41:06.699+08:002011-10-15T20:41:06.699+08:00GabbyD, it isn't a guess. It is an observation...GabbyD, it isn't a guess. It is an observation. And NO parent would admit to putting themselves ahead of their kids. I see kids working when they should be in school. How do you read that? If it is not interesting to you, it is no problem with me. Frankly, I am highly interested in the well-being of Filipino kids. I'm surprised you can't read that into my words, instead of engaging in these relentless challenges. I don't know what you want, actually. For me to know you require proof for every word that is nebulous to you? Gadzooks.The Society of Honorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02536906267332687130noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4855856123871700301.post-45550344721774893632011-10-15T16:51:00.951+08:002011-10-15T16:51:00.951+08:00here's the problem. you are alleging MOTIVATIO...here's the problem. you are alleging MOTIVATION on the part of the parents.<br /><br />did you talk with them? ask them about their experiences?<br /><br />i know a few poor people. i "know" means, i count them as people that i have conversations with.<br /><br />NONE of them fit your "me first before my kids" motivation.<br /><br />now, i was expecting you to tell me you've had conversations with people on WHY they decided what you say they decided.<br /><br />but i didnt read that. i just read that you lived, there were poor people.<br /><br />that doesnt add anything. i know all the stats you are referring to. i can always THEORIZE about why those stats came about. <br /><br />now, are YOU theorizing? guessing about why you see what you see?<br /><br />or did you have a heart to heart with these people? to really KNOW their motivations (as opposed to "deducing" their motivations by observing the fact that many kids dont go to school)<br /><br />if you tell me that you have spent time talking with them, and they TELL YOU that they PUT THEMSELVES FIRST before their kids., THEN there is something to this.<br /><br />but if this is just a guess, then its less interesting.<br /><br />now, which is it?GabbyDnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4855856123871700301.post-12686139122386656982011-10-15T16:26:08.986+08:002011-10-15T16:26:08.986+08:00Mariano, so many fine thoughts there.
I appreciat...Mariano, so many fine thoughts there.<br /><br />I appreciate that your Englichstes contains the correct spelling of acrylic, for mine would need a spellchecker. Isn't that insane? Acrylic school uniforms? Imagine the cost of buying millions of uniforms that aren't good for the humid tropics.<br /><br />"Filipinos can do it!" classes. Yes, yes, yes! Teach aspiration and competition and confidence. And teach the joy and riches that come with being smart. You and I can figure that out. Why can't the geniuses who manage education?<br /><br />Rather than building classrooms, how about applying technology (tablet computers networked on the internet) so kids can learn at the coffee shop or table under the mango tree?<br /><br />God is definitely interpreted poorly in the Philippines, where people are told to suffer rather than figure out a way out of suffering.<br /><br />Perhaps Clinton studied in the Philippines, and that is how he knows "is" means whatever you want it to mean, whether it is against the law or not.<br /><br />My Land Bank branch requires that people sit in rows of chairs, with the chair at the end of row 1 being next up at the teller counter. The teller calls that person up for service. All the customers then get up, move one chair over, and sit down. The whole room does that, about 50 people. Then the next person is called to a teller and the whole room moves again, one chair at a time. I want my money, so I have to get in that crazy child's game. I don't know whether to laugh or cry as I get up, move my ass, get up, move my ass. I guess they can't afford little plastic chits with numbers on them, to give to customers as they come it. They certainly know how to humiliate their grown-up customers by engaging them in an obedient child's game of musical chairs. Autocratic dumbos . . .<br /><br />"they lie most of the time and they don't even know they are lying" Bingo. The morality and psychology of the Philippines in 14 easy words.<br /><br />As to media companies making the oil companies appear charitable . . . could it be that the media companies are owned by the same oligarchs that run the oil companies? Inquiring minds wonder . . .The Society of Honorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02536906267332687130noreply@blogger.com